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	<title>Comments on: GLAD: DOJ DOMA Defense &#8216;Misses the Forest for the Trees&#8217;</title>
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	<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/</link>
	<description>Same dork, new year!</description>
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		<title>By: The OPM-Ninth Circuit Dispute, Disentangled</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-5981</link>
		<dc:creator>The OPM-Ninth Circuit Dispute, Disentangled</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=4117#comment-5981</guid>
		<description>[...] in its Gill challenge as an alternative argument to striking down Section 3 of DOMA, a point I discussed [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in its Gill challenge as an alternative argument to striking down Section 3 of DOMA, a point I discussed [...]</p>
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		<title>By: PG</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-5888</link>
		<dc:creator>PG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 19:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=4117#comment-5888</guid>
		<description>I think it was reasonable for the civil rights movement not to be hugely concerned about a white man (Mr. Loving) who went to jail after being charged in Virginia with fornication (because his marriage to a black woman was not recognized, it was non-marital sex). As far as the day-to-day lives of black people were concerned, it was a lot more important to actually get Brown v. Board enforced and to get measures like the Fair Housing Act. Interracial marriages aren&#039;t always popular with people of color either, though obviously it has less to do with racial supremacy and more about concern with preserving the minority cultures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it was reasonable for the civil rights movement not to be hugely concerned about a white man (Mr. Loving) who went to jail after being charged in Virginia with fornication (because his marriage to a black woman was not recognized, it was non-marital sex). As far as the day-to-day lives of black people were concerned, it was a lot more important to actually get Brown v. Board enforced and to get measures like the Fair Housing Act. Interracial marriages aren&#8217;t always popular with people of color either, though obviously it has less to do with racial supremacy and more about concern with preserving the minority cultures.</p>
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		<title>By: PG</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-5887</link>
		<dc:creator>PG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 19:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=4117#comment-5887</guid>
		<description>Agreed that a whole Constitutional Convention is laughably unlikely. Why would anyone bother? 

The amendment wouldn&#039;t have to go as far as the one the GOP was pushing 2004-06 and favored by Bush, which would have barred SSM from ever happening anywhere in America by any means. I&#039;m saying that if the Supreme Court ruled that SSM was a federal constitutional right, there&#039;s enough people who are vaguely pro-LGBT-ish (the Barack Obamas, frankly, who oppose Prop. 8 and favor civil unions but get squeamish about the actual word marriage) that an amendment specifically barring the Court from reading a SSM right in the Constitution would have a decent chance in Congress. That Democratic majority is full of Blue Dogs who are no further to the left on this issue than the president is. 

It&#039;s a lot easier to say &quot;Let&#039;s not make SSM a federal constitutional issue&quot; than to say &quot;SSM should never be possible for anyone anywhere, even if they got a popular vote in their own state to favor it.&quot; The amendment the Republicans were pushing a few years back made a joke of their so-called federalism because it would overrule the states -- which traditionally have been able to define marriage and have the federal government accept those varying definitions (first cousins? 13 year olds? states can decide). That amendment was never going to have much of a chance, because only the out-and-out haters could favor it. 

There was no principled conservative ground for amending the U.S. Constitution to change how marriage had been dealt with in our system of divided powers. In contrast, there are a lot of non mis-homoist (i.e. gay-hating ... I find the word &quot;homophobe&quot; inaccurate because it literally means fear when these people&#039;s sentiments are closer to hatred) reasons to question whether the Supreme Court should be finding a right to SSM in the Constitution. And you&#039;d hear every one of them (plus all the mis-homoist ones) if the Court at this point rules on SSM.

(I don&#039;t see how the Court could say that SSM is *un*constitutional -- there&#039;s absolutely nothing in the text about marriage, and the little there is about sex/gender is for equality. At most, the Court could declare that there is nothing in the federal constitution that commands SSM, which would change nothing since all the state court decisions for SSM thus far have had independent state constitutional grounds for why SSM is required.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed that a whole Constitutional Convention is laughably unlikely. Why would anyone bother? </p>
<p>The amendment wouldn&#8217;t have to go as far as the one the GOP was pushing 2004-06 and favored by Bush, which would have barred SSM from ever happening anywhere in America by any means. I&#8217;m saying that if the Supreme Court ruled that SSM was a federal constitutional right, there&#8217;s enough people who are vaguely pro-LGBT-ish (the Barack Obamas, frankly, who oppose Prop. 8 and favor civil unions but get squeamish about the actual word marriage) that an amendment specifically barring the Court from reading a SSM right in the Constitution would have a decent chance in Congress. That Democratic majority is full of Blue Dogs who are no further to the left on this issue than the president is. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a lot easier to say &#8220;Let&#8217;s not make SSM a federal constitutional issue&#8221; than to say &#8220;SSM should never be possible for anyone anywhere, even if they got a popular vote in their own state to favor it.&#8221; The amendment the Republicans were pushing a few years back made a joke of their so-called federalism because it would overrule the states &#8212; which traditionally have been able to define marriage and have the federal government accept those varying definitions (first cousins? 13 year olds? states can decide). That amendment was never going to have much of a chance, because only the out-and-out haters could favor it. </p>
<p>There was no principled conservative ground for amending the U.S. Constitution to change how marriage had been dealt with in our system of divided powers. In contrast, there are a lot of non mis-homoist (i.e. gay-hating &#8230; I find the word &#8220;homophobe&#8221; inaccurate because it literally means fear when these people&#8217;s sentiments are closer to hatred) reasons to question whether the Supreme Court should be finding a right to SSM in the Constitution. And you&#8217;d hear every one of them (plus all the mis-homoist ones) if the Court at this point rules on SSM.</p>
<p>(I don&#8217;t see how the Court could say that SSM is *un*constitutional &#8212; there&#8217;s absolutely nothing in the text about marriage, and the little there is about sex/gender is for equality. At most, the Court could declare that there is nothing in the federal constitution that commands SSM, which would change nothing since all the state court decisions for SSM thus far have had independent state constitutional grounds for why SSM is required.)</p>
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		<title>By: John D</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-5865</link>
		<dc:creator>John D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 03:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=4117#comment-5865</guid>
		<description>I keep seeing comments (here and elsewhere) that a loss would mean that same-sex marriage would be &quot;unconstitutional.&quot; I think the better way to look at it is that if we lose in &lt;i&gt;Perry&lt;/i&gt;, there will be no constitutional protection for same-sex marriage. To get there, I think they&#039;d have to overturn &lt;i&gt;Romer&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Lawrence&lt;/i&gt; (though I am not a lawyer).

We know what the country looks like with no guarantee of constitutional protection for same-sex marriage. We&#039;re living in it.

And even if the court upholds bans on same-sex marriage, it won&#039;t be forever. In 1883, the Court in &lt;i&gt;Pace v. Alabama&lt;/i&gt; held that states could prohibit interracial sex. It took a long time for that one to get overturned, but it did. Ironically, the civil rights leadership didn&#039;t want to back the Loving case. They felt it was a distraction from the movement&#039;s real goals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I keep seeing comments (here and elsewhere) that a loss would mean that same-sex marriage would be &#8220;unconstitutional.&#8221; I think the better way to look at it is that if we lose in <i>Perry</i>, there will be no constitutional protection for same-sex marriage. To get there, I think they&#8217;d have to overturn <i>Romer</i> and <i>Lawrence</i> (though I am not a lawyer).</p>
<p>We know what the country looks like with no guarantee of constitutional protection for same-sex marriage. We&#8217;re living in it.</p>
<p>And even if the court upholds bans on same-sex marriage, it won&#8217;t be forever. In 1883, the Court in <i>Pace v. Alabama</i> held that states could prohibit interracial sex. It took a long time for that one to get overturned, but it did. Ironically, the civil rights leadership didn&#8217;t want to back the Loving case. They felt it was a distraction from the movement&#8217;s real goals.</p>
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		<title>By: Prup (aka Jim Benton)</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-5863</link>
		<dc:creator>Prup (aka Jim Benton)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=4117#comment-5863</guid>
		<description>The &#039;new Constitutional Convention&#039; that would be called if your idea came about would not -- and could not -- be limited to any single issue.  Check out your Constitution.  It would be authorize to re-write the whole document, and because of this, would be even less likely to pass.  Of course, were it to happen, Vancouver, here I come.  But there&#039;s never been any movement towards it at all, and when the idea gets brought up, people get reminded of just what I&#039;ve pointed out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8216;new Constitutional Convention&#8217; that would be called if your idea came about would not &#8212; and could not &#8212; be limited to any single issue.  Check out your Constitution.  It would be authorize to re-write the whole document, and because of this, would be even less likely to pass.  Of course, were it to happen, Vancouver, here I come.  But there&#8217;s never been any movement towards it at all, and when the idea gets brought up, people get reminded of just what I&#8217;ve pointed out.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Decker</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-5851</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Decker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 01:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=4117#comment-5851</guid>
		<description>&quot;starts the ball rolling&quot;, perhaps.  But 30 isn&#039;t 37, and even if you can get every single state that has ever enacted such a ban on a state level to do so now, at a later date (and I don&#039;t think that&#039;s obvious), you still have to win in 7 more states.

Heck, I said I might be naive.  But that looks like a big ol&#039; strectch by any analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;starts the ball rolling&#8221;, perhaps.  But 30 isn&#8217;t 37, and even if you can get every single state that has ever enacted such a ban on a state level to do so now, at a later date (and I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s obvious), you still have to win in 7 more states.</p>
<p>Heck, I said I might be naive.  But that looks like a big ol&#8217; strectch by any analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Decker</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-5850</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Decker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 01:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=4117#comment-5850</guid>
		<description>Near the election, yes, I thought there was a fair chance we&#039;d lose here in CA, and a very good chance we were going to lose in ME.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Near the election, yes, I thought there was a fair chance we&#8217;d lose here in CA, and a very good chance we were going to lose in ME.</p>
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		<title>By: Unwonted Pseudonym</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-5831</link>
		<dc:creator>Unwonted Pseudonym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=4117#comment-5831</guid>
		<description>If every state that has a DOMA applies for a convention on the issue, that&#039;s enough to start the ball rolling. So yes, I think it&#039;s quite plausible that an FMA could get off the ground if the legal strategy overreaches. It would be a close-fought and risky thing

But calling opponents &quot;Fundies&quot; and dismissing the risks has worked such a treat for the electoral efforts of the SSM movement so far. No need to reconsider strategy now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If every state that has a DOMA applies for a convention on the issue, that&#8217;s enough to start the ball rolling. So yes, I think it&#8217;s quite plausible that an FMA could get off the ground if the legal strategy overreaches. It would be a close-fought and risky thing</p>
<p>But calling opponents &#8220;Fundies&#8221; and dismissing the risks has worked such a treat for the electoral efforts of the SSM movement so far. No need to reconsider strategy now.</p>
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		<title>By: Unwonted Pseudonym</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-5830</link>
		<dc:creator>Unwonted Pseudonym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=4117#comment-5830</guid>
		<description>Quick question: did you expect that the anti-SSM forces could muster, in &lt;i&gt;California and Maine&lt;/i&gt;, no less, sufficient numbers to overturn SSM at the ballot box?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quick question: did you expect that the anti-SSM forces could muster, in <i>California and Maine</i>, no less, sufficient numbers to overturn SSM at the ballot box?</p>
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		<title>By: Prup (aka Jim Benton)</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/11/23/glad-doj-doma-defense-misses-the-forest-for-the-trees/#comment-5823</link>
		<dc:creator>Prup (aka Jim Benton)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=4117#comment-5823</guid>
		<description>The usual solid analysis, but I am far more worried about THIS Supreme Court ruling the exact opposite, and declaring SSM unconstitutional, than the reverse.

And do you really think, without a true tidal wave of reaction that might have us all exploring real estate availability in Canada, that an anti-SSM Amendment could get a simple majority in either house, not to mention the required majorities in both houses and in the legislatures.  The fundies have been trying for years to pass anti-choice, pro-school prayer, and &#039;parental rights&#039; Amendments -- the last is the really scary one -- and have never come close.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The usual solid analysis, but I am far more worried about THIS Supreme Court ruling the exact opposite, and declaring SSM unconstitutional, than the reverse.</p>
<p>And do you really think, without a true tidal wave of reaction that might have us all exploring real estate availability in Canada, that an anti-SSM Amendment could get a simple majority in either house, not to mention the required majorities in both houses and in the legislatures.  The fundies have been trying for years to pass anti-choice, pro-school prayer, and &#8216;parental rights&#8217; Amendments &#8212; the last is the really scary one &#8212; and have never come close.</p>
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