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	<title>Comments on: DOJ Responds, in Measured Tone, to Gill DOMA Challenge</title>
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	<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/</link>
	<description>Same dork, new year!</description>
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		<title>By: GLAD: DOJ DOMA Defense &#8216;Misses the Forest for the Trees&#8217;</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/#comment-5795</link>
		<dc:creator>GLAD: DOJ DOMA Defense &#8216;Misses the Forest for the Trees&#8217;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=3647#comment-5795</guid>
		<description>[...] past week, GLAD filed its opposition to the government&#8217;s Motion to Dismiss (covered here), as well as moving for summary judgment in the plaintiffs&#8217; favor.  It is clear from this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] past week, GLAD filed its opposition to the government&#8217;s Motion to Dismiss (covered here), as well as moving for summary judgment in the plaintiffs&#8217; favor.  It is clear from this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Geidner</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/#comment-2972</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Geidner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 19:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=3647#comment-2972</guid>
		<description>Flex, we can *all* try to keep comments civil -- no matter what others do. Thanks. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flex, we can *all* try to keep comments civil &#8212; no matter what others do. Thanks. <img src='http://lawdork.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: FlexSF</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/#comment-2971</link>
		<dc:creator>FlexSF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 08:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=3647#comment-2971</guid>
		<description>Nobody is forcing you to read this law blog, you orangutan-troll. Where do you think you are, a Sarah Palin rally? Banging your fists on your chest, and hurling insults, shows your wholesale lack of simple excitement, and couth. 

If you believe that law dork&#039;s brief is so lousy, let us see what you can produce you vapid, flea-brain, mama&#039;s boy. Chris G, and his talents, will change the world, and you&#039;re nothing more than a crazy drunk festering behind a computer screen who can&#039;t do anything about it. 

&quot;Anti-Geidner,&quot; get a life, you lame slob!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody is forcing you to read this law blog, you orangutan-troll. Where do you think you are, a Sarah Palin rally? Banging your fists on your chest, and hurling insults, shows your wholesale lack of simple excitement, and couth. </p>
<p>If you believe that law dork&#8217;s brief is so lousy, let us see what you can produce you vapid, flea-brain, mama&#8217;s boy. Chris G, and his talents, will change the world, and you&#8217;re nothing more than a crazy drunk festering behind a computer screen who can&#8217;t do anything about it. </p>
<p>&#8220;Anti-Geidner,&#8221; get a life, you lame slob!</p>
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		<title>By: PG</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/#comment-2969</link>
		<dc:creator>PG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=3647#comment-2969</guid>
		<description>I agree with your post where you say that it&#039;s more appropriate for the DOJ, in its essentially mandatory role of defending Congressionally-enacted statutes, to refer to what &lt;i&gt;Congress&lt;/i&gt; believed rather than stating something as an objective fact. But I still think the people who are having ongoing freakouts over the citations to the differences among states&#039; marriage laws (OMG THEY CALLED US PEDOPHILES) are silly. 

Indeed, those citations from the Smelt brief should now be thrown back in the DOJ&#039;s face for the point that Bill and PhoenixRising note: in all other cases, when states have had differing marriage laws, the federal government has recognized as married couples whose marriage is recognized in the state where they reside. &quot;Hey, remember in Smelt when you were talking about the first-cousin marriages and the 16-year-olds&#039; marriages? Those marriages were recognized by the federal government. Why aren&#039;t ours?&quot; 

Fight the battle with your enemy&#039;s weapons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your post where you say that it&#8217;s more appropriate for the DOJ, in its essentially mandatory role of defending Congressionally-enacted statutes, to refer to what <i>Congress</i> believed rather than stating something as an objective fact. But I still think the people who are having ongoing freakouts over the citations to the differences among states&#8217; marriage laws (OMG THEY CALLED US PEDOPHILES) are silly. </p>
<p>Indeed, those citations from the Smelt brief should now be thrown back in the DOJ&#8217;s face for the point that Bill and PhoenixRising note: in all other cases, when states have had differing marriage laws, the federal government has recognized as married couples whose marriage is recognized in the state where they reside. &#8220;Hey, remember in Smelt when you were talking about the first-cousin marriages and the 16-year-olds&#8217; marriages? Those marriages were recognized by the federal government. Why aren&#8217;t ours?&#8221; </p>
<p>Fight the battle with your enemy&#8217;s weapons.</p>
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		<title>By: PG</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/#comment-2968</link>
		<dc:creator>PG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=3647#comment-2968</guid>
		<description>Lawrence is grounded in two separate lines of precedent. One is the Griswold-Roe-Casey line of privacy cases, in which the idea is that the government should not interfere in matters like using condoms or obtaining an abortion beyond what is necessary for protecting citizens&#039; health and safety. This involves using a level of scrutiny higher than rational basis, because there is a constitutional right to privacy. 

The other, newer line of precedent comes from Romer v. Evans, which states that laws used to express disapproval of homosexuals or homosexuality do not meet the &quot;rational basis&quot; standard; the Court does not consider animus toward homosexuals to be a &lt;i&gt;rational&lt;/i&gt; basis for a law.

Kennedy&#039;s opinion in Lawrence does not acknowledge that he is using &quot;heightened scrutiny&quot; for laws that discriminate against homosexuals. It is moreover questionable that that is his entire framing of the issue, given that his opinion strikes down not only the Texas statute under which Lawrence and Garner were prosecuted (which only prohibited homosexual sodomy), but rather nullifies ALL anti-sodomy statutes (including those in Georgia and Virginia, which prohibited heterosexual sodomy as well). Had Kennedy thought the law problematic only for its discrimination against same-sex couples, he could have adopted O&#039;Connor concurrence, which would have left the GA and VA statutes standing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lawrence is grounded in two separate lines of precedent. One is the Griswold-Roe-Casey line of privacy cases, in which the idea is that the government should not interfere in matters like using condoms or obtaining an abortion beyond what is necessary for protecting citizens&#8217; health and safety. This involves using a level of scrutiny higher than rational basis, because there is a constitutional right to privacy. </p>
<p>The other, newer line of precedent comes from Romer v. Evans, which states that laws used to express disapproval of homosexuals or homosexuality do not meet the &#8220;rational basis&#8221; standard; the Court does not consider animus toward homosexuals to be a <i>rational</i> basis for a law.</p>
<p>Kennedy&#8217;s opinion in Lawrence does not acknowledge that he is using &#8220;heightened scrutiny&#8221; for laws that discriminate against homosexuals. It is moreover questionable that that is his entire framing of the issue, given that his opinion strikes down not only the Texas statute under which Lawrence and Garner were prosecuted (which only prohibited homosexual sodomy), but rather nullifies ALL anti-sodomy statutes (including those in Georgia and Virginia, which prohibited heterosexual sodomy as well). Had Kennedy thought the law problematic only for its discrimination against same-sex couples, he could have adopted O&#8217;Connor concurrence, which would have left the GA and VA statutes standing.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Geidner</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/#comment-2967</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Geidner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 01:57:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=3647#comment-2967</guid>
		<description>Not everyone, U.P.  

In my haste to remind people that I *had* voiced concerns with the original Smelt brief, which you might recall nonetheless led to quite a bit of disagreement with me from the gay community, I skipped over the fact that you and others argued quite forcefully that handing the brief over to a &quot;true believer&quot; might be a smart move.

Apologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not everyone, U.P.  </p>
<p>In my haste to remind people that I *had* voiced concerns with the original Smelt brief, which you might recall nonetheless led to quite a bit of disagreement with me from the gay community, I skipped over the fact that you and others argued quite forcefully that handing the brief over to a &#8220;true believer&#8221; might be a smart move.</p>
<p>Apologies.</p>
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		<title>By: PhoenixRising</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/#comment-2966</link>
		<dc:creator>PhoenixRising</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 01:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=3647#comment-2966</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I assume that the other side&#039;s brief emphasize the reality that this clause of DOMA doesn&#039;t actually maintain the federal government&#039;s historic relationship to marriage at all--but instead delivers the lower level of respect available in any state (no recognition) to all same sex couples regardless of marital status.

When is oral argument? I&#039;ve become a junkie since &lt;i&gt;Varnum&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I assume that the other side&#8217;s brief emphasize the reality that this clause of DOMA doesn&#8217;t actually maintain the federal government&#8217;s historic relationship to marriage at all&#8211;but instead delivers the lower level of respect available in any state (no recognition) to all same sex couples regardless of marital status.</p>
<p>When is oral argument? I&#8217;ve become a junkie since <i>Varnum</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Unwonted Pseudonym</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/#comment-2965</link>
		<dc:creator>Unwonted Pseudonym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 01:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=3647#comment-2965</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;which everyone agrees went too far&lt;/i&gt;

Aaaaand I can pretty much stop reading there, then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>which everyone agrees went too far</i></p>
<p>Aaaaand I can pretty much stop reading there, then.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/#comment-2959</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=3647#comment-2959</guid>
		<description>Nice summary, Chris (except for &quot;whims,&quot; which I don&#039;t believe is justified).

DOJ finds it objectionable that federal benefits would vary from state to state -- seemingly unaware that benefits vary now from household to household.

Did DOMA maintain the status quo? If you think the status quo was limiting benefits to heterosexual couples, sure. If you think the status quo was deferring to the states for the definition of marriage, not at all. Status quo is a fuzzy concept.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice summary, Chris (except for &#8220;whims,&#8221; which I don&#8217;t believe is justified).</p>
<p>DOJ finds it objectionable that federal benefits would vary from state to state &#8212; seemingly unaware that benefits vary now from household to household.</p>
<p>Did DOMA maintain the status quo? If you think the status quo was limiting benefits to heterosexual couples, sure. If you think the status quo was deferring to the states for the definition of marriage, not at all. Status quo is a fuzzy concept.</p>
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		<title>By: PhoenixRising</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/09/18/doj-responds-in-measured-tone-to-gill-doma-challenge/#comment-2958</link>
		<dc:creator>PhoenixRising</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.net/?p=3647#comment-2958</guid>
		<description>That was insightful, but to meet the Complete Pointlessness Standards set so capably by Anti, you&#039;ll need to add length.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was insightful, but to meet the Complete Pointlessness Standards set so capably by Anti, you&#8217;ll need to add length.</p>
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