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	<title>Comments on: Is Laurence Tribe a Liar?</title>
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	<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/</link>
	<description>Same dork, new year!</description>
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		<title>By: Second Take on the Dept. of Justice DOMA Memo &#171; Leave it to Seaver</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/#comment-511</link>
		<dc:creator>Second Take on the Dept. of Justice DOMA Memo &#171; Leave it to Seaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.wordpress.com/?p=1657#comment-511</guid>
		<description>[...] of the language it used in its defense of the statute. But, looking at the law and past cases, I disagreed that the Obama administration had a real choice about whether it would defend DOMA in court and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of the language it used in its defense of the statute. But, looking at the law and past cases, I disagreed that the Obama administration had a real choice about whether it would defend DOMA in court and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chairman Frank and Aravosis&#8217;s Misstatements &#171; Law Dork, 2.0</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/#comment-510</link>
		<dc:creator>Chairman Frank and Aravosis&#8217;s Misstatements &#171; Law Dork, 2.0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:45:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.wordpress.com/?p=1657#comment-510</guid>
		<description>[...] addition to my previously pointing out the statements from Tribe and Raben, Georgetown Law Professor Nan Hunter (who literally wrote the book on sexual orientation [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] addition to my previously pointing out the statements from Tribe and Raben, Georgetown Law Professor Nan Hunter (who literally wrote the book on sexual orientation [...]</p>
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		<title>By: PG</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/#comment-509</link>
		<dc:creator>PG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.wordpress.com/?p=1657#comment-509</guid>
		<description>But you&#039;ve provided no precedent that plaintiffs actually do have a constitutional right to federal recognition of their marriage. You say that the federal government has recognized state-licensed marriages in the past even when there were disparities among states, but you haven&#039;t provided any precedent for the claim that there&#039;s a &lt;i&gt;constitutional right to such recognition&lt;/i&gt;, rather than its being at the discretion of the federal government.

Given that Romer and Lawrence were based on rational basis review, and Lawrence specifically carves out marriage (&quot;[This case] does not involve whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter&quot;), there&#039;s no precedent on which to rely in saying that sexual orientation is a suspect classification such that failing to recognize SSM would violate a constitutionally-protected form of equality.

The only instance I can find where the federal government was unwilling to recognize a type of marriage, the Supreme Court ruled that there was no constitutional right to such a marriage. I don&#039;t know of a precedent for the federal government to be forced to recognize a marriage that Congress has said it doesn&#039;t want to recognize.

In short, &lt;i&gt;Smelt&lt;/i&gt; might reasonably be considered premature. It requires a judge willing to push past rational basis to a level of scrutiny used for sex classifications (which is where I&#039;ve always thought sexual orientation belonged anyway since it&#039;s based on the sex of the parties).

Tautology - Logic - a compound propositional form all of whose instances are true, as “A or not A.”

&quot;The federal government recognizes a state&#039;s marriages or the federal government does not recognize the political entity to be a state if its marriages are disapproved.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But you&#8217;ve provided no precedent that plaintiffs actually do have a constitutional right to federal recognition of their marriage. You say that the federal government has recognized state-licensed marriages in the past even when there were disparities among states, but you haven&#8217;t provided any precedent for the claim that there&#8217;s a <i>constitutional right to such recognition</i>, rather than its being at the discretion of the federal government.</p>
<p>Given that Romer and Lawrence were based on rational basis review, and Lawrence specifically carves out marriage (&#8221;[This case] does not involve whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter&#8221;), there&#8217;s no precedent on which to rely in saying that sexual orientation is a suspect classification such that failing to recognize SSM would violate a constitutionally-protected form of equality.</p>
<p>The only instance I can find where the federal government was unwilling to recognize a type of marriage, the Supreme Court ruled that there was no constitutional right to such a marriage. I don&#8217;t know of a precedent for the federal government to be forced to recognize a marriage that Congress has said it doesn&#8217;t want to recognize.</p>
<p>In short, <i>Smelt</i> might reasonably be considered premature. It requires a judge willing to push past rational basis to a level of scrutiny used for sex classifications (which is where I&#8217;ve always thought sexual orientation belonged anyway since it&#8217;s based on the sex of the parties).</p>
<p>Tautology &#8211; Logic &#8211; a compound propositional form all of whose instances are true, as “A or not A.”</p>
<p>&#8220;The federal government recognizes a state&#8217;s marriages or the federal government does not recognize the political entity to be a state if its marriages are disapproved.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/#comment-508</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.wordpress.com/?p=1657#comment-508</guid>
		<description>PG--

Exactly. So given the lack of on-point precedent, the brief cites precedent--offensive to some--which, if anything supports Section 1 of DOMA, not 2 (see br. at 16-18). The DOJ&#039;s cited argument stretches the precedent out of shape, and for that reason alone need not be made, regardless of whether the DOJ has an obligation to defend Section 2 of DOMA.

As an aside, I&#039;m not sure what definition of tautology you&#039;re applying, but the statement that &quot;[u]p to this point, I believe the federal government took a marriage, so long as duly licensed by a state, as a marriage for purposes of determining federal benefits&quot; does not qualify under any traditional meaning. Perhaps you mean that statement is misleading?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PG&#8211;</p>
<p>Exactly. So given the lack of on-point precedent, the brief cites precedent&#8211;offensive to some&#8211;which, if anything supports Section 1 of DOMA, not 2 (see br. at 16-18). The DOJ&#8217;s cited argument stretches the precedent out of shape, and for that reason alone need not be made, regardless of whether the DOJ has an obligation to defend Section 2 of DOMA.</p>
<p>As an aside, I&#8217;m not sure what definition of tautology you&#8217;re applying, but the statement that &#8220;[u]p to this point, I believe the federal government took a marriage, so long as duly licensed by a state, as a marriage for purposes of determining federal benefits&#8221; does not qualify under any traditional meaning. Perhaps you mean that statement is misleading?</p>
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		<title>By: PG</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/#comment-507</link>
		<dc:creator>PG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.wordpress.com/?p=1657#comment-507</guid>
		<description>John,

Sure, and one can argue that women always had the right to vote and it was just unconstitutionally denied or never before properly recognized until the 19th Amendment. Even to someone who isn&#039;t a legal realist, &quot;it&#039;s still a right even if it was invisible until very recently&quot; is not a good argument. It&#039;s also irrelevant to the precedent of the federal government&#039;s recognizing marriages.

The federal government has recognized marriages licensed by &lt;i&gt;states&lt;/i&gt;, but this is potentially tautalogical given that territories that refused to conform their marriage laws as the federal government desired were not allowed to become states. For example, within Utah polygamous marriages were recognized, but the territory was refused admission to the Union until it had outlawed such marriages. That would be an instance of a type of marriage that the federal government had never recognized before (in contrast to interracial marriage, which the federal government always had recognized).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>Sure, and one can argue that women always had the right to vote and it was just unconstitutionally denied or never before properly recognized until the 19th Amendment. Even to someone who isn&#8217;t a legal realist, &#8220;it&#8217;s still a right even if it was invisible until very recently&#8221; is not a good argument. It&#8217;s also irrelevant to the precedent of the federal government&#8217;s recognizing marriages.</p>
<p>The federal government has recognized marriages licensed by <i>states</i>, but this is potentially tautalogical given that territories that refused to conform their marriage laws as the federal government desired were not allowed to become states. For example, within Utah polygamous marriages were recognized, but the territory was refused admission to the Union until it had outlawed such marriages. That would be an instance of a type of marriage that the federal government had never recognized before (in contrast to interracial marriage, which the federal government always had recognized).</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/#comment-506</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.wordpress.com/?p=1657#comment-506</guid>
		<description>PG--

Thanks for the thoughtful response.  A couple points:

There&#039;s an argument that gay marriage isn&#039;t new at all--rather, the right existed in various state constitutions but was always unconstitutionally denied or never before properly recognized.  But that&#039;s not critical to my point.

My argument is also not precisely that &quot;because the federal government never treated interracial marriage as a new form of marriage, it cannot say that SSM is a new form of marriage&quot;.  Rather, my point is, for the purposes of granting federal benefits to married couples, I don&#039;t believe any precedent allows the federal courts to deny that a marriage is or is not a marriage.  Up to this point, I believe the federal government took a marriage, so long as duly licensed by a state, as a marriage for purposes of determining federal benefits.  Is that incorrect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PG&#8211;</p>
<p>Thanks for the thoughtful response.  A couple points:</p>
<p>There&#8217;s an argument that gay marriage isn&#8217;t new at all&#8211;rather, the right existed in various state constitutions but was always unconstitutionally denied or never before properly recognized.  But that&#8217;s not critical to my point.</p>
<p>My argument is also not precisely that &#8220;because the federal government never treated interracial marriage as a new form of marriage, it cannot say that SSM is a new form of marriage&#8221;.  Rather, my point is, for the purposes of granting federal benefits to married couples, I don&#8217;t believe any precedent allows the federal courts to deny that a marriage is or is not a marriage.  Up to this point, I believe the federal government took a marriage, so long as duly licensed by a state, as a marriage for purposes of determining federal benefits.  Is that incorrect?</p>
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		<title>By: PG</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/#comment-505</link>
		<dc:creator>PG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.wordpress.com/?p=1657#comment-505</guid>
		<description>John,

But many states always allowed for interracial marriage, so the federal government has always had to recognize interracial marriages. There never was a period in U.S. history where there were no interracial marriages at all; of the original 13 states, NY, VT, NH, CT and NJ never prohibited interracial marriage. (And of course what was deemed &quot;interracial&quot; varied greatly from one state to another. Many statutes drew a line between whites and all non-whites, while some like Oklahoma&#039;s drew the line between blacks and all non-blacks.)

In contrast, there is no state that has always allowed for same-sex marriage. It is an innovation in our law to recognize SSM. There also never has been any variation from marriage to recognize interracial relationships; either they were criminally penalized, or they were legally recognized as marriages. There were no domestic partnerships, civil unions etc. for interracial couples.

While I consider Loving v. Virginia a significant precedent for the unconstitutionality of a state government&#039;s distinguishing between citizens for the purpose of marriage on a basis that the Constitution does not allow (whether it&#039;s race or sex), if you&#039;re going to argue that because the federal government never treated interracial marriage as a new form of marriage, it cannot say that SSM is a new form of marriage, you might want to compare their respective histories more carefully. When the Lovings got married to D.C. and then moved to Virginia, they weren&#039;t just dealing with having the Commonwealth refuse to treat them as spouses. Under the laws against fornication, and particularly interracial fornication, they were criminally liable for living together when Virginia did not recognize them as husband and wife.

I do not know of a case where an interracial couple were demanding benefits; all the cases regarding interracial couples with which I am familiar were either demands to be allowed to marry in a state that forbade their marriage, or appeals from criminal charges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>But many states always allowed for interracial marriage, so the federal government has always had to recognize interracial marriages. There never was a period in U.S. history where there were no interracial marriages at all; of the original 13 states, NY, VT, NH, CT and NJ never prohibited interracial marriage. (And of course what was deemed &#8220;interracial&#8221; varied greatly from one state to another. Many statutes drew a line between whites and all non-whites, while some like Oklahoma&#8217;s drew the line between blacks and all non-blacks.)</p>
<p>In contrast, there is no state that has always allowed for same-sex marriage. It is an innovation in our law to recognize SSM. There also never has been any variation from marriage to recognize interracial relationships; either they were criminally penalized, or they were legally recognized as marriages. There were no domestic partnerships, civil unions etc. for interracial couples.</p>
<p>While I consider Loving v. Virginia a significant precedent for the unconstitutionality of a state government&#8217;s distinguishing between citizens for the purpose of marriage on a basis that the Constitution does not allow (whether it&#8217;s race or sex), if you&#8217;re going to argue that because the federal government never treated interracial marriage as a new form of marriage, it cannot say that SSM is a new form of marriage, you might want to compare their respective histories more carefully. When the Lovings got married to D.C. and then moved to Virginia, they weren&#8217;t just dealing with having the Commonwealth refuse to treat them as spouses. Under the laws against fornication, and particularly interracial fornication, they were criminally liable for living together when Virginia did not recognize them as husband and wife.</p>
<p>I do not know of a case where an interracial couple were demanding benefits; all the cases regarding interracial couples with which I am familiar were either demands to be allowed to marry in a state that forbade their marriage, or appeals from criminal charges.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/#comment-504</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.wordpress.com/?p=1657#comment-504</guid>
		<description>The DOJ has gone further than precedent, though, by trying to create two new classes of marriage: heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage.  The intent of the various state initiatives to legalize gay marriage was, at least in part, to do away with any legal distinction between the two.  The DOJ is essentially arguing for federal common law that defines each kind of marriage differently, and inherently arguing that that federal common law trumps the state&#039;s attempt to equalize civil marriage.

Someone tell me if I&#039;m wrong, but I haven&#039;t seen a precedent for the federal government denying marriage benefits to, e.g., a mixed-race marriage on the basis that there are two kinds of marriage under federal law: same-race marriage and mixed race marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The DOJ has gone further than precedent, though, by trying to create two new classes of marriage: heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage.  The intent of the various state initiatives to legalize gay marriage was, at least in part, to do away with any legal distinction between the two.  The DOJ is essentially arguing for federal common law that defines each kind of marriage differently, and inherently arguing that that federal common law trumps the state&#8217;s attempt to equalize civil marriage.</p>
<p>Someone tell me if I&#8217;m wrong, but I haven&#8217;t seen a precedent for the federal government denying marriage benefits to, e.g., a mixed-race marriage on the basis that there are two kinds of marriage under federal law: same-race marriage and mixed race marriage.</p>
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		<title>By: PG</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/#comment-503</link>
		<dc:creator>PG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 19:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.wordpress.com/?p=1657#comment-503</guid>
		<description>John Aravois is really making an ass of himself on this. And his co-bloggers are still doing the &quot;OMG you compared SSM to incest!&quot; whine. The most likely change to DOMA that Obama and Congress will make actually will be to treat SSM like other variation in marriage law: states are not obliged to recognize out of state marriages, but a marriage recognized in any state is a marriage the federal government will recognize (i.e. first-cousin marriages are recognized as marriages by the federal government, even if Texas doesn&#039;t allow such marriages). Saying it&#039;s inherently offensive and outrageous and out-of-the-question to compare SSM to such federally-recognized marriages is a nice way to shoot this significant improvement in the law in the foot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Aravois is really making an ass of himself on this. And his co-bloggers are still doing the &#8220;OMG you compared SSM to incest!&#8221; whine. The most likely change to DOMA that Obama and Congress will make actually will be to treat SSM like other variation in marriage law: states are not obliged to recognize out of state marriages, but a marriage recognized in any state is a marriage the federal government will recognize (i.e. first-cousin marriages are recognized as marriages by the federal government, even if Texas doesn&#8217;t allow such marriages). Saying it&#8217;s inherently offensive and outrageous and out-of-the-question to compare SSM to such federally-recognized marriages is a nice way to shoot this significant improvement in the law in the foot.</p>
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		<title>By: Obama&#8217;s DOJ Did Not Have To Go This Far &#171; Law Dork, 2.0</title>
		<link>http://lawdork.net/2009/06/12/is-laurence-tribe-a-liar/#comment-501</link>
		<dc:creator>Obama&#8217;s DOJ Did Not Have To Go This Far &#171; Law Dork, 2.0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 06:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lawdork.wordpress.com/?p=1657#comment-501</guid>
		<description>[...] Is Laurence Tribe a Liar? &#171; Law Dork, 2.0 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Is Laurence Tribe a Liar? &laquo; Law Dork, 2.0 [...]</p>
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